Ep. 33 – How to work with a divorce coach on an international divorce

Tim Whitney: Today we're joined by Chloe Oudiz, a divorce coach and author of the Amazon bestselling book, Don't Screw Up Your Divorce.

She also has her own brilliant podcast that covers a variety of topics with a host of fascinating guests.

Jen Curtis: Chloe brings an international lens to divorce coaching, born in Paris to a French father and an American mother. She now lives in London and works with clients across borders. She brings the benefit of her own experience of divorce, having navigated three jurisdictions as part of that and complex cross-border parenting arrangements. She now helps others avoid the difficulties that she faced in that situation. Welcome, Chloe.

Chole Oudiz: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Tim Whitney: So why don't we start, Chloe, if you can just tell us a bit about your background and what led you to do the work you're doing today.

Chole Oudiz: That's a question I get asked a lot , because I think divorce coaching is an emerging profession. , I guess on the professional side, I started my professional, career working in law. I have a master's in law and then I got a master's in international affairs. And I've lived all over the world.

I've been an expat for over 24 years. So I've been in Morocco, in the US, in France and England. But before becoming a divorce coach, I really had a very traditional corporate career. I worked in the city and my job was to negotiate very complex business deals. Every single day. But what happened is in parallel to that career on the personal side in my life was developing as well.

And I had kind of a dual experience of divorce. I initially got divorced from my ex, quite amicably. We shared a lawyer and, it cost us, I think a thousand pounds at the time. And it was all very straightforward. He moved down the street. We weren't the best of friends, but it went very well.

And within a few months we were done. What happened is, a few years later, he moved abroad suddenly, and we had a very different experience that time around because the main ingredient that helps with amicable resolution is communication. And that had stopped. He moved without telling me. He refused to speak to me, and so we weren't able to discuss things between the two of us.

Everything was channelled through our lawyers and everything became a lot more complicated because we just couldn't sit down and have a chat. So from those two experiences, I really, experienced myself the difference between how well a divorce can go if it's handled properly and how off the rails it can go.

And as Jennifer mentioned earlier, you know, I had. Three different jurisdictions at play that second time around it became extremely messy, extremely stressful, and a lot longer and more expensive than the first time around. So that led me to really try and find a way of helping people to divorce without the usual chaos and the hurt that we see in movies and in dramas on television.

And as I was thinking about that, I started helping people around me. Friends. Friends of friends who were going through divorce, colleagues at work as well, who organically came to see me and who wanted some help for someone who can guide them through the process, help them avoid the common pitfalls, and just know what they're doing so that it doesn't completely get out of hand and turn into that chaotic scene that I have experienced.

So that's how the business developed. You know, I started doing it very informally and then realised there was a real service missing somewhere between what a therapist does and a lawyer, and that's when I, started doing some research and got trained as a divorce coach and started this as a, full-time affair.

Jen Curtis: I think it's really interesting the extent to which all of this hangs on the point you make about communication. And actually I've never thought of it in that way before in terms of a divorce coach actually being able to help someone to understand the process so that they are then better able to articulate what they want out of the process.

They're able to give better instructions to their lawyers because they're coming from a place of understanding the situation. , I think sometimes we can think. Divorce coaches, perhaps more on the therapeutic emotional support coaching kind of side of things. Yeah. But actually I suspect your legal experience, you've got a keen eye , on efficient, clear communication , and how that also benefits the legal process.

Chole Oudiz: Absolutely., I think, you know, that's kind of the big difference between coaching and therapy. In coaching, we build skills. It's not just listening, of course. I mean even lawyers, you know, it's part of the job is listening to the emotions 'cause they're part of the story. But it's not just helping people to deal with those emotions, it's helping them build practical skills to actually move forward in life and achieve their objectives.

And that's where those hard skills like learning how to communicate, learning how to negotiate, become really important and make a massive difference in people's ability to reach agreements.

Tim Whitney: And I think there's sometimes points on there with international families, certainly where these things are made more difficult by practical problems like time zones, and just being in separate places, which would apply, even if you are parenting as a couple that were together, , across these, geographies. But I suppose having experienced that yourself, what are the, common themes that you notice with international clients?

Chole Oudiz: I mean the big one, and actually it's related to what you were saying, , with regards to communication is jurisdiction decisions.

For a lot of people there is a choice of which country they can divorce in. And the laws are different. In each country the potential outcomes are different, but also the experience of divorce some countries it will take longer, it'll be more expensive. They will be a fault-based divorce versus no fault.

So those are all things that people need to take into consideration. One of the things that I find particularly difficult in international divorce is that when you're divorcing internationally and there is that jurisdictional race, it does lead to a breakdown in communication because if you want to secure this jurisdiction that is the safest or the most favourable to you, then you are going to have to file before speaking to the other person, and I find that very difficult to recover from. The reason why people choose to tell their spouses, to show them respect and to try and make sure that from the very beginning they're setting the ground for an amicable resolution. But if you have to proceed without speaking to them right away, it makes things more acrimonious.

But jurisdiction question is one of the very first ones, but throughout the divorce process, there are questions like tax implications, different taxation regimes in different countries, immigration implications. A lot of people are in the country based on a spousal visa. What happens if they split up?

And what does that mean in terms of seeing their children? And of course, as you mentioned, long distance co-parenting. If one of the two goes back to their country or if the other one continues to move around as an expat, how do they handle that and how do they continue to work as a team?

One of the issues that I had myself was the enforcement of a foreign agreement.  I got divorced in France, I was living in England. We got divorced in France and getting that enforced in England later on was incredibly tricky. So on the legal side, there's a lot of complexity and that's things that I've experienced myself and that I've helped hundreds of clients through, the difficulties that, that brings up. But then on the personal front, there's also a whole other dimension that makes people particularly vulnerable during that time. I mean, first of all, you're away from your usual support network, usually away from your family. A lot of people are afraid of being stuck in a foreign country that they have no reason to be in except for the fact that their spouse was there.

And then their children are usually stuck there as well. And then you're, you know, you're getting divorced in a foreign country, different legal system, sometimes in a language that you don't speak very well. And, you know, even for an English speaker, the legal jargon in England is quite difficult to come to terms with.

But if it's not your native language, it's that much harder. And so in a lot of ways, I serve as a bit of a translator, in the wider sense of the word , for my clients to help them understand not just the words, but the logic behind the system. If it's very different to the country they come from.

Jen Curtis: I think that's a really key point there in terms of, , just understanding that different places do things differently. You know, been recently explaining to a client from overseas , just how the adversarial English legal system works. . We had a children law hearing and I think to some extent, she was a little bit surprised at just how one person speaks. The other person responds. The judge sort of navigates this, uh, tennis rally of back and forth submissions and there was an interpreter involved. So the pace of the hearing was quite slow and steady and you could just see how the argument moved back and forth.

And I think that that was quite a cultural surprise for her to actually see in practice.

Chole Oudiz: Yeah. And I think there's a lot of cultural differences like that, that creep up. And the one I see a lot, I mean, I coach in French and in English, I have a lot of French speaking clients as a result. And as some of you might know, in France, it's a codified system.

And there is a, regime, it's called a matrimonial regime. That actually dictates in a very formulaic way how assets get split on divorce. And so for French people who have that mindset of, there's a book somewhere that says exactly how things are meant to happen coming to England or to any other common law country and dealing with the discretionary approach, accepting that you don't have the perfect answer. There is no text that says exactly how much you're going to get. That can be really difficult for people to come to terms with, and I find it, you know, whether I'm working with a person or their spouse is very much stuck in that mindset and struggling to adapt to the fact that they're operating in a jurisdiction that works in a different way.

Jen Curtis: And that can almost play into the decision about if there is a choice of jurisdiction, because do you go for a system which will give you certainty or do you go for a system that you could potentially receive, a more improved financial settlement, but it's not guaranteed.

Chole Oudiz: And that's exactly it.

That's just, you know, one of the small pieces, , but usually one that people get very concerned about because it starts at the, very first big decision they have to make. You know, the filing is a very scary step for a lot of people. And so making that decision in a context where there's that additional complication, it's, you know, it gets very stressful.

So I have a lot of clients who want to work on that exclusively for the first 3, 4, 5 sessions. And I help them speak to lawyers in the right jurisdictions to understand what outcomes could look like and look at the overall picture to see which jurisdiction makes the most sense for them. It's not always just about where they're going to get the best outcomes.

Tim Whitney: And I think that point about sort of getting off on the right foot. It's it that challenge to international couples is that , as you said, they're having to do this work almost in secret. Because that's the nature of the sort of jurisdiction race as it would be called. And, the change into no fault divorce from our point of view in domestic cases was quite helpful 'cause it meant that you weren't having to start a case with listing all the reasons that were unreasonable about the other person, but actually international couples.

Suffer from a different type of sort of wrong footed start, don't they? Where even if they want to, their legal teams will be saying too, well, until we've done this, you can't really do that. And then, you know, I see it a lot, I suppose, in mediation work. Someone's saying to, well, that I didn't want to do it like that.

I was told I had to do it like that. So now can we sort of start where we would've been? Then the person's saying, well, the trust is broken. That doesn't really matter why it's happened. And so I think, you know, I think your point about that is relatively unique. Thankfully to now couples that are having to think about Jewish things, but it is a, it's a, you know, fundamental challenge for them to have to deal with each time.

Chole Oudiz: It really is. And I think that, those early stages of the divorce are often overlooked. The way in which you tell your spouse, whether it's in an argument or whether you sit down and have an honest conversation, it's all going to have an influence on the. Rest of the process, and it sets the tone for the conversation, and the conversations to come.

So that preparation and that planning ahead of time, if you're the decision maker, can make a really big difference and really make sure that you are in control of how things unfold and that you're not just, destroying everything in the wake of your divorce.

Tim Whitney: And I think that that links to having those realistic expectations. Because actually if you think right, I'm going to walk out and I don't have to deal with this person again, so I can, you know, burn everything to the ground. And actually then you go and see a lawyer and they say, well, in this country, divorce takes six months as a minimum, and you're going to have to do this and this.

And actually, you're going to have to sort of walk back with the tail between your legs and say, sorry, I didn't mean it. I think that point around people understanding that the context and the work that you probably do with them about actually filling in the gaps between what a lawyer might tell them versus how different that is to what they're expecting or what they've experienced in their own new country.

But then I think that's what it's also about. I agree with you, how the case starts can have such a huge impact of which path it takes.

Chole Oudiz: Absolutely.

And I think, you know, like everything in life information is key. And, you know, I know certainly from talking about myself, I didn't know anything when I started, the divorce process.

I hadn't had the time to gather information. I hadn't thought through whether I wanted to go to mediation or whether we were going to take a more acrimonious approach. I didn't even know about mediation actually. You know, when I look back at it, there was just so much information I didn't have.

And so I was navigating blind. That's what I'm trying to prevent people from doing. 'cause there's a lot of the steps that they take in the early stages that are not legal steps, that won't be guided by a lawyer. But all those steps make a very big difference in how things go, going forward, and so making sure that you know what you're doing, that you have the information you understand, you know that it's going to take at least six months, you understand what it might look like if it did go to court, you understand that mediation is something that is going to be strongly encouraged.

Just having that information allows people to have a much more realistic approach to how they want to take things forward.

Jen Curtis: Particularly potentially at a time if they're also playing sort of emotional catch up in terms of feeling ready for the divorce. That is not the best time to try to be absorbing lots of complex legal information.

Chole Oudiz: That's true. And I think that's something, you know, one of the common mistakes people make is the one who's been deciding and thinking about it for a while is. 10 steps ahead of the other person and just recognising they need a bit of time to catch up, emotionally and logistically as well, to, you know, to get a legal team together to make sure that they have the right team around them.

That's all a process that they're, you know, a few steps behind on. And so giving them the time to catch up is going to be really important. And in the end, it serves everybody. It's not just out of consideration for the other. Forcing someone to make decisions when they're not emotionally ready is going to lead to either deadlock or poor decisions that are then going to have to be reviewed later on.

You want your spouse to be in a space where they know what they're doing and they understand the repercussions of what they're deciding because you don't want them turning around a few months later and saying, I changed my mind.

Tim Whitney: And so if we can just turn to talking a bit about how you actually work with clients. I know you have a divorcing differently method. Could you talk to us a bit about what that means in practice? How that works, how you work with clients?

Chole Oudiz: Yeah. So it really boils down to the ethos that I think I've conveyed already is trying to focus on a less destructive way of divorcing, teaching people how to do it right. I think, a lot of people intend to do it right. If you look at statistics, 90% of couples at the point of separation want an amicable divorce.

In reality, only about 20% succeed, to do a DIY divorce. The intentions are there, but again, knowledge is power and having someone to guide you to make sure that you know what you're doing at every step is where it makes the whole difference. So the divorce differently approach is really based on three pillars.

The first one is the importance of planning and preparing. Whether you're the decision maker or you're being told by your spouse that they're leaving, taking time to assemble a team, and that is a team of multifunctional, professionals, but also friends and family and what exact role you want them to play.

But also plan in terms of what that divorce might look like to you. Build a budget for your divorce. Build a budget for your life afterwards. Understand the difference out of court. Options and understand which ones might work for you. I've had clients who said, no way would mediation ever work for me.

But then when I start explaining the option of doing shuttle mediation, suddenly that becomes much more interesting. So just understanding what those options are, how they would work, and building a divorce plan. That's really one of the first things we do is develop that plan for how they would like their divorce to unfold.

Now, of course, there's two people in that relationship, and it doesn't always go exactly to plan. But the idea is that you're not being reactive. You have an intention, you know what good looks like in your book, and at a time where you're more cool-headed. The second pillar is learning how to negotiate effectively, and that's something that's very dear to me.

My training is in negotiation skills. As I mentioned earlier. I have a lot of experience in the business world negotiating very complex deals, and the skill of knowing how to negotiate is something that is not properly taught or at all taught, in schools. And I find a lot of my clients feel like they are the underdog in the negotiation.

If I had a penny for every time somebody came to me saying that their spouse or soon to be ex is an excellent negotiator and they're going to say yes to whatever, because they don't know how to negotiate, I'd probably be a millionaire by now. So, teaching people those hard skills of how to negotiate, how to communicate proposals, how to build proposals that are credible and that have different levels of tiers so that you know which elements you can play with.

You already have in your back pockets some ideas of what those could be. But also you define your own limits for reviewing the other person's proposals. So learning how to enter that negotiation, whether it's in mediation or over your kitchen table and FDR, whatever it is, that's going to help people to avoid deadlocks, to deal with the other person's silly games if they're playing games and to get to an outcome, which is really what they're aiming for.

And then the third, pillar of the methodology is learning how to deescalate conflict. In a lot of cases, the reason why divorces go off the rails is because there is an escalation of conflict that is very hard to backpedal from. So being very aware of when you are just fuelling the fire and focusing on your objectives, is what you're going to say going to contribute to what you're trying to achieve here?

Or is it just you letting off some steam and getting it out your system, but potentially in that process, polarizing the conversation that much more. So I teach people practical skills to help reduce conflict, to help to deal with those very difficult conversations, whether it's announcing to your spouse that you want to leave, or it's, telling them that actually no, you know, you don't want to, you want to stay in the house as well, whatever it might be.

Learning how to handle those difficult conversations and make sure that they don't turn into an argument and they remain focused on finding practical solutions is another key to managing this process. So really it's about an innovative way. It's moving away from the traditional, horrible way we see the divorce being portrayed in the media and in movies and helping people look at divorce as really an opportunity for a fresh start, which it ultimately is.

That's the whole point of divorce, is you want to start again and you think you can do better. So focusing on that part rather than the destructive part of it, and really being much more family centred in the way you approach things.

Jen Curtis: And I think really framing that in terms of actual practical skills that people can kind of take on and bring to the process is, you know, going to be really, really valuable for the people that you work with. One of the points that sort of spring to mind as you were talking there in terms of the communications and deescalating things. Sometimes I think that clients think, that if they get a letter from the other solicitor,  they've got their own solicitor, they think, fine, I'm going to rant at my solicitor because it's okay. They will filter that down. Yeah. And an appropriate response will be sent back. They don't necessarily make the connection in terms of what does that mean in terms of additional legal fees?

Is their solicitor going to be sort of up to some extent going off on a tangent, you know, giving them advice that they don't necessarily want, need, perhaps, that's not quite the right word, but they've sort of made a point and suddenly the solicit thinks, oh, well, I better now give you this extra piece of detail.

And that doesn't actually lead to the effective communication, which is getting a pragmatic and well-reasoned response back to the other party solicitor.

Chole Oudiz: Absolutely. A big part of the planning phase is thinking about your team and who are the right people to have on board and how do you want to use your solicitor?

Are they going to become your therapist and you're going to share everything with them? You have to accept the legal fees that comes with that and the bills that will come afterwards. Or do you want to use your lawyer as a legal consultant, somebody who's going to give you that legal, side of things, but still empower you to make your own decisions and to understand how you want to proceed.

I think that's really where there's. Huge value for a client having a solicitor who can guide them and who can help them to have all the information to make those decisions and to feel confident about those.

Tim Whitney: I think that empowerment point is the key one, isn't it? Because I think there are times often at the beginning where you do need a lawyer maybe or somebody else to offer some protection to you because emotionally you might not be ready. But as the time goes on, I think the engagement with a client, the sort of how proactive they are within the process is important because otherwise at the end or maybe a year later or two years later, they'll feel as though it happened to them.

Versus. They were engaged, they were making decisions, they were sort of steering the ship as it were, so that it provides, I think that you end up in a position of saying, actually. It's a new start. I'm ready. I've learned the skills. I'm empowered and ready to go. Yes, it was sad and yes, I wouldn't ever choose to do it again, but I'm sort of launching into the next phase rather than the opposite, which is I don't really know what went on.

My solicitor's dealt with it for me, and I've been a passenger in that process.

Chole Oudiz: Great. And I don't think, you know, whether it's a solicitor or any other person, they can't make decisions for you. Only you know what's important to you. Only, you know what. Good looks like in your world. And so it's important to be able to give clear instructions to your lawyer.

And to do that, you need to know where you want to be heading, and that's where, that whole planning and objective and goal-focused approach comes in really being clear on. What is the destination you're aiming for? And that means that all the decisions you make throughout the process are dictated by whether they take you to that destination or not.

And it avoids you being taken off the rails by the other person's behaviour. 'cause you know which direction you're heading and you can avoid that noise and distraction that inevitably happens.

Jen Curtis: And I wonder if we sort of move perhaps to looking at the future proofing in terms of the work that you do. Because obviously these people will be wholly sort of absorbed in their divorce, but they've also potentially got to have a co-parenting relationship or some form of parenting relationship with their other parent moving forwards.

And I just wonder sort of perhaps, what are some of the skills that are there that you helped to bring out in people, that are really set to help them move into the future?

Chole Oudiz: Yeah, and I think it boils down to what I was saying earlier around communication and not engaging in conflict.

Recognising when a message is so full of emotion that it doesn't actually need a response. Focusing on the more practical sides of co-parenting and treating it almost as a business relationship. I mean, effectively you're a team with this joint mission of raising these children and making sure that they're safe and happy.

And if you approach it in that way, then this person is a collaborator. You don't have to particularly like them. But you're working together towards this objective. So, you know, communication is always going to be a really important one. And if during the divorce when it's really a time of crisis, if you're able to continue to communicate and manage that element of your lives jointly, then that's an acquired skill for life. And of course it benefits the children, but it also benefits the parents because it means they're not dealing with ongoing conflict and feuds, as their children grow up, 'cause you're not getting rid of that other person that soon.

Jen Curtis: Absolutely. And I think with an international family in particular, I always feel like there's even more things that can act as those real sort of sticking points that could turn a conversation into something less pleasant than that, you know, should the children be allowed to travel on the unaccompanied minor scheme seems to be the thing that's comes up most often for me. But there's again, perhaps if you are communicating more by email because of time differences or whatnot, all of that really takes skills that are not always easy to develop on your own.

Chole Oudiz: I agree, and, you know, you touch a little bit on a point. That's something that I really enjoy working with people on is that long distance co-parenting. I myself co-parent from distance. My ex is in Eastern Europe and we've been doing that for about six years now. So I've got the scars from my own experience, but on the back of that, I created a template for people to document a parenting plan for those long distance arrangements and communication between the parents. I mean, it's key when you're living next to each other, but if you're miles and miles away from each other, it's that much more important, because the parent who's far away. Will inevitably miss out on things.

And so that really creates even more of a need for the parents to have that communication on a regular basis so that the resident parent can update the other on what's happening. Even if it's silly things, you know, like, oh, they're no longer friends with their friend Joe. They got in an argument, or, you know, they were being bullied a bit at school.

Or, you know, it could be very informal things. Those little snippets of information about the child's life allow the parent who's far away to remain involved and to understand what's going on. And then when they speak to the child, the child sees that they're up to date, that they know what's been happening.

And so there's no disconnect and there's really that ongoing parenting relationship despite any kind of distance.

Tim Whitney: I think that's a very, very good point and I think it's a nice point for parents to think about when you think about the impact that has on the child, which is, I don’t know, let's say a child does very well in an exam or a test or something at school, and the next time they talk to their parent that's in a different country, they already know that and they're saying, well done.

It's just one of those things that children, whether they realise or not, depending on what age they are, will just provide them with the comfort of thinking actually mom and dad are functioning. Yeah. And this is all working. And so I think that's a very good example as to, the value this can bring to the children of actually being able to get this right as parents.

We normally would ask what your one bit of advice would be, but I feel like you've told us that communication, communication, communication. But I also want to give you the right of reply in case I've sort of misunderstood that, but do you think that is the main piece of advice?

Chole Oudiz: I think it is the key to having a chance at negotiating agreements. I think where it all goes haywire is when all communication stops and everything is happening either through correspondence or via solicitors, and there's just no direct conversation. That is not a realistic approach, especially if you're going to co-parent, in the future.

I think that's definitely my top tip. My other one would be just not shoot from the hip. Take your time before you start negotiating agreements. It's a process. You're not going to wrap up, you know, 10, 20 years of your life in a week or two. Nor should you actually, you should honour that time.

So I think it's important for people to take time, to gather information, to speak to various professionals, to make sure that their emotions have settled and to be in a place where they feel ready to have those conversations. But I see a lot of people rushing in, literally in the conversation where they tell their spouse they want to leave.

They're already telling them. So I'm thinking, you'll keep the pension, I'll get this. It is not the right time, and doing things at the right pace is going to be key. And, again, we come back to this idea of planning and preparing for these things.

Tim Whitney: Well, thank you, Chloe, for sharing your own experience and knowledge of the challenges facing international couples on separation. You've explained the most important points around planning, obtaining early information, and then ensuring that you've got the skills that you'll actually need during the divorce, whether it's negotiating communication or as you said, the techniques for reducing conflict.

We'll provide a link to Chloe's website and her book in the episode notes. And as always, if anyone has any questions or suggested topics for future episodes, then please contact us in the usual way.