Ep. 35 – How to work with your lawyer on divorce

Tim Whitney: In the last four episodes, we have spoken to professionals who support people going through separation. So today we thought it'd be helpful to stay on this theme and share our top tips for working with your lawyer. We're always mindful that many clients have not worked with a lawyer before. So we're going to talk about three main areas.

Firstly, preparing for your first meeting. Then how to communicate with your lawyer throughout the case, and finally working on documents together.

So Jen, what do you say to clients to help them prepare for their first meetings?

Jen Curtis: I think there's two main things I would say. Firstly. Around how they prepare themselves for the meeting, and secondly, in terms of how they prepare for the information that they're going to try and get across to their solicitor.

So from their own perspective, I think time is spent thinking about what you want to get out of the meeting can be really valuable. Your lawyer should be happy to talk about anything and everything that you want to cover in a first meeting, but if you are not able to articulate particular questions or particular issues that you want to focus on, what you may find is that your solicitor is therefore giving you quite a broad overview on the whole, and you might come away feeling as though you've only got perhaps an overview advice when actually you wanted a bit more detailed information about a particular issue that's concerning you. I think there's also a point about being in the right head space for your first meeting. And there's no ideal time to arrange the meeting with your solicitor.

But if you are offered a 9.30 appointment and you know that you've got to do the school run that morning and it's going to be a bit tight on timing and you're not quite sure where you're going to park. Well, you're going to turn up to your meeting that little bit more flustered of feeling under pressure and potentially taking a little bit of time of that meeting to kind of get back into the listen mode and being able to kind of get the information from your solicitor that you want.

And I would say for the profession as a whole, we're very happy to accommodate requests, whether it is, moving times, taking things into account, in terms of your commitments and things, whether that's having the meeting in person or on video. Because one or other of those things will make the meeting easier for you. And I suppose if I can have the rule of three and a third point, I would probably say that it's always a good idea to start, as you mean, to go on and deal with any preparation that's been asked of you by your solicitor.

There's usually paperwork to sign in advance terms of engagements providing initial information and things. And whether or not your solicitor has specifically said it to you in advance, I would certainly be prepared to give an overview of the key date. So that will be things like date of marriage, your dates of birth, children's dates of birth it's all information that you'll likely have at your fingertips, but sometimes in the pressure of, meeting your solicitor from the first time, these things can leave your mind.

And certainly if you are looking for a meeting to talk about your finances on separation, even if it's just a broad overview at the initial meeting, being able to succinctly summarize we've got a house, we've each got a pension. I think he or she has got some money in Isa's. I inherited a piece of artwork from my grandmother when she died. That can all give your lawyer, some context to work within the meeting so that they can start from the outset to not just tell you about the law, but actually tell you what the law means in your case.

Tim Whitney: Brilliant. Those are all very good points. And one thing that I would add is often you will speak to your lawyer on the phone , and then there'll be a period of time between that telephone call and your meeting, and I think what's quite helpful is to create a note on your phone or in a notebook if you use one.

And just over that period knowing you've got the meeting, just write down any questions. So have it to hand. And if it's in the middle of the night or when you're brushing your teeth or whatever time of day, you can then just write it down and think, oh, when I finish the meeting, I really want to come away knowing the answer to this question.

And then as you said, Jen, when you meet with the lawyer, you can say to them. You know, I want to understand these different areas, but I really want to make sure that I come away understanding these five key questions for me at the moment. And that just helps with some structure because you may not remember them otherwise.

Because the meetings take a natural course and it might be that you're then on the way back home again and you think, oh, why didn't I ask that? So I think that sort of practical tip that I would share. 

Jen Curtis: Absolutely. And I think have the confidence to set out those questions at the outset so that your lawyer can weave the answers into that, you know, as part of the discussions and make sure that they focus on it at the relevant time.

Because I have had circumstances in the past in meetings where, the client has sort of perhaps given me the impression that they're sort of an open book. They just want to hear the information that I've got to offer them, and I go through that process. And then at the meeting, then the specific questions start, and actually you are then having to recap on stuff, which any lawyer will be very, very happy to do.

But where that then potentially has an impact is in terms of the length of the meeting. You know, the client might have their own time pressures, the lawyer might have theirs, and of course the longer the legal meeting goes on for, if you are working on an hourly rate basis then the more that meeting could then cost you.

Tim Whitney: Yeah, exactly. And I think to your point around, you know, time of day, I think there's also a point around location of these meetings. I've had people that sometimes have been at work and log on to the meeting, a virtual meeting at work. And the point to remember is that this is a very personal topic.

It is about your life and very personal topics will often get talked about. So you need to be somewhere that you're comfortable having those conversations. So if it is going to be a remote meeting, I think you need to make sure that it's somewhere that you're not going to be worried about being overheard, whether it's by colleagues or by other family members.

And that might be a good reason to think about whether it's worth trying to have these meetings in person, rather than online. And then I suppose the other point I was going to ask what your views were, were around taking somebody else with you to the meeting.

Jen Curtis: Yes. I think if that person is going to be there to listen and support you, then I would absolutely support that.

I think the only time where I've perhaps, questioned the value for a client of having somebody else in the meeting is where that other person perhaps has their own agenda, and that's very rare. But for example, if you've got a parent who has helped you to fund the purchase of your family home and you are coming to the meeting to find out what's going to happen to that house?

The questions you are asking are perhaps going to come from the perspective of, well, where am I going to live and how am I going to afford to buy a new house? But the family member may be coming to the meeting from the perspective of, am I going to get my money back? And those are two quite different questions.

So someone who's supportive and there to listen and back you up. Absolutely. A second pair of ears, someone to bounce ideas off immediately after the meeting would always be supported.

Tim Whitney: Brilliant. Okay, so let's move on to our second topic, which is communication. And by this, I suppose we're talking about how you communicate with your lawyer, how you receive the advice, whether it's on the telephone, whether it's in meetings, whether it's on email.

And it's an important topic because you will communicate quite a lot with your lawyer, and for the vast majority of lawyers the time you spend communicating with them will directly impact the cost of working with them. So it's important to try and not only find a pattern that works for you insofar as receiving the advice and making sure that it's understood, but also so that it's efficient from a cost point of view.

Jen Curtis: Absolutely. I mean, communication is at the heart of the job and it's one of the reasons why we do the job that we do is because we enjoy communicating with people. But I would say to clients, don't be afraid to explain from the outset what does and doesn't work for you. I will never forget my one of my very, very first clients who at the end of the matter was very grateful for the advice that I provided.

But she sort of said, you know, as you move on with your career, one thing I would say is you don't always have to send me an email at five o'clock on a Friday I was much more junior then, and what I thought I was doing was. Giving her space to deal with her work during the working week and then making sure that she's got something, which I knew she probably wouldn't be able to look at until the weekend 'cause she was very busy.

But actually I think for her it kind of became, oh right, it's Jennifer's weekly email. And I would like to say that I have very much varied my technique and do have these conversations, you know, with clients, what does work, you know, if they've got a non-working day and that's.

During the week, and that's most likely when they're going to be able to deal with things. Great. If I can make sure I've got something to them by then and that's what they want, then I'll absolutely do that.

I think most lawyers will gravitate towards one particular form of contact. In this day and age, that is probably email by default because it has that combination of speed and efficiency. It will reach you quickly. But it's then on the client's terms as to when they respond to that.

But if you are someone who, particularly at the outset of a matter. Feels massively overwhelmed. You know, you receive emails on your phone, you see our names pop up and it completely throws you, well then absolutely communicate that to your solicitor and say, oh, well, would you mind just giving me a call before you're about to send a letter from my ex, or would you mind only emailing me towards the end of the day because at least then I know I won't be at work and I can look at it when I'm at home and I've got the head space to do so.

Tim Whitney: I mean, I think personalizing the communication to your preferences is, is a key point. And you know, you've given some examples. I can think of others where I've had clients that have said I don't want to receive anything from lunchtime on Friday. So if the other side send a letter and it doesn't need to be dealt with that day, then please save it and send it on Monday.

Similarly, I've had clients that say, actually, can we just have a weekly call at this time every week so that we can update on everything that's coming in and out that week. If it's a two minute call, it's a two minute call. If it's an hour call, it's an hour call, but they know they've got that drumbeat of.

Always having a meeting to be updated on. And as you say, others will say, you know, can you send me a WhatsApp message before you send a long letter so that I know, and then I can choose when to look at it. So there are a number of things that we can do that help manage, I suppose, the level of communication and try and give our clients some control over what's being sent from, the other set of lawyers or the other person.

I suppose there's also a point in this section around you know, the volume of communication. So I think probably I would say that, if you can group things into one email rather than sending five emails, then that would be helpful.

That might be that, again, similar to the point I made earlier, you have an email that you add to, and then you send it at the end of the day or the end of the week, rather than it being 10 emails in that week. You then have, you know, one or two longer emails with different paragraphs and different sections that deal with different points.

I think that can be helpful rather than generating too much email traffic and equally sending an email that says, these are the things I'm thinking about. Do you think it's better for us to have a call or can you reply to these by email? Again, that I think can be quite helpful is to sort of offer up explicit questions to your lawyer saying, what do you think will be the most efficient way to deal with this? And then sort of following their lead. Because they will have been asked these questions before and will have that level of knowledge. So that they should be able to give you some guidance on that.

Jen Curtis: Mm-hmm. I completely agree with your point there in terms of grouping points within emails if possible. And that's one of the great things about having access to emails or mobile phones is that you've usually got a device right there with you that you can make notes on and group things together.

I think the flip side of that is a mobile phone might be tricky if it's the only way in which you are going to be reviewing emails and documents from your solicitor, because depending on the style of the person that you're working with, it may well be that if a letter is being written to the other side, that may well be prepared as a Word document and you may be asked to give your comments on that.

And therefore, thinking about how you can have a Word document on one device or you know, on one screen, and then make some notes in an email about it. That's not necessarily the best functionality from a mobile phone. So just thinking about what tech you might need around you to do that, whether you need your lawyer to send you something in a different format.

Perhaps saying to them, I know it will go out as a Word document, but could you please put the text in the body of the email that you're sending to me so that I can make my comments within that technology should be there to help with these communications. And it's just about being creative with it and perhaps leaning on your lawyer's experience where possible if things aren't as seamless as you'd like them to be.

Tim Whitney: I think that's a brilliant point. The final point that I was going to mention was really around content of communication. And I suppose, this links into the discussions we had with the divorce coaches in previous episodes, and, with Julie De Ruiter, the therapist is this point of who should I be communicating with?

Is this a conversation for my friends. Is this a conversation that I should be having with a therapist or with a divorce coach, or is this a lawyer conversation so that you're just directing the right communication to the right people within your team and you're not spending too much time and money, I suppose, on a phone call with your lawyer where half an hour out of the hour is a rant about how awful, your ex has been and then half an hour of legal discussion.

Really what you want is ideally half an hour of legal discussion or at most a few minutes of context, and then mainly legal discussion. So I think there's a point around just making sure that you are communicating the right, topics or content to the right people in your team.

Jen Curtis: Mm-hmm. And I think that also extends to within the legal team, depending on the lawyer that you're working with. It may be that you have a senior solicitor who's leading on some things, but they might be assisted by a junior. They may well have a very reliable, PA or secretary who supports them a lot with more administrative matters.

So understanding, even just who does what within the law firm and asking your solicitor if they haven't volunteered that information from the outset. You know, if I want to book an appointment with you, who is the best person to make contact with?

Tim Whitney: Exactly, and I think that can also link in with how you're communicating. So it might be that a telephone call to a secretary or assistant is the easiest way to get dates. Otherwise you're going to have 10 emails going back and forwards offering different dates.

As you say, it's all about picking the right people at the right time and communicating the appropriate content to each of them.

Okay, so let's move on to our third and final topic for the day, which is around documents. I suppose when we're talking about documents, we're talking really about mainly statements or evidence or collecting financial disclosure and things like that rather than emails and letters.

Jen Curtis: Yeah, absolutely. And believe me, there can be plenty of documents that are produced as part of a separation. Particularly if you've got a financial case and you are going through the process of financial disclosure with your solicitor. Hopefully your solicitor will send you a very clear request for information and will include within that a deadline by which they need the information back.

And I suppose this links a little bit up to the earlier point about communication is making sure that you realize that the court deadline or the deadline that's been agreed for an action with the other side. Is not the day on which you need to get your information to your solicitor. You need to work backwards from that because although it might seem like a very procedural step to you, oh, well, we're going to exchange bank statements.

There is still some thought and care that needs to be put into that process by your solicitor, making sure that everything's been properly included, making sure that there aren't any questions or issues that might arise from sharing that information with the other side that they sort of need to anticipate.

So build in the, I suppose you'd call it the solicitor processing time and allow them time to review things and come back to you with questions before they've then got to meet the deadline that's either been set by the court or agreed with the other side.

Tim Whitney: I agree. I think actually being organized over the course of a whole case makes a huge difference.

I mean, I remember probably about 15 years ago, a client came into the office and he literally opened up a shopping bag and emptied it out onto the desk, and it was bank statements. It was unopened envelopes of credit card statements, and it took ages to go through and open up all those statements and check which ones they were and check what dates were and were they relevant to what we were asking?

Now the other end of that spectrum is that you have a very clear list of documents that you're asked to provide. You provide them all and you name them all, and you put them all in order. And actually that preparation means that they can very easily be put into a financial disclosure bundle or a court bundle or a bundle of documents.

And it goes to this point of you are then working with your lawyer and asking them to provide the legal analysis rather than looking through documents, trying to find things they can't find, asking you questions of, well, have you sent that because I can't see that you've sent it. And you said, well, I did send it to you.

I sent it in 14 unnamed attachments that were just numbers because they just, that was how they downloaded off the system. So it's a simple point, but it actually, over the course of the whole case, I think it can have a very big impact based on ease of working with each other, but also ultimately on costs, is that if everything is named with a nice, clear naming convention, then it makes everybody's lives a lot easier.

Jen Curtis: Absolutely. And I think as you say, it can certainly help to save costs, but I think it can also help to save you, the client, the mental load of dealing with everything. Because you will know that you've done the job once and you've done it properly. That you are not going to get follow up questions, you know when you are at work,
oh, the back page of that document wasn't scanned in straight and I can't read it. Can you please resend it? We've then got to remember to do that when you get home, et cetera, et cetera.

So, there is real value in it for the client and, you know. Lawyers will deal with whatever level of support you need in collating your disclosure or whatever the action point may be.

But I think what we're just trying to get across today is if you want to lessen the practical and financial burden on you of working with a solicitor and for example, going through the financial disclosure process, these can be really valuable points to bear in mind.

Tim Whitney: I think one of the other things is that as a case becomes more complicated, potentially if you have to issue court proceedings, it can be quite helpful to have a actions grid. It doesn't have to be anything too complex, but it's about setting out the deadlines, setting out what tasks need to happen before the deadlines, but also who's got ownership of those tasks and making a note of once they've been completed.

And I think it's useful for, from a project management point of view almost, but I think it's also helpful from a client's point of view to understand the context of saying okay. There's a hearing in March. So that means that actually look how many things I've got to do with deadlines for January. I need to make sure I've got time in my diary that I can do those things.

But I can see from this that actually then I might have a quite a few weeks in February. And then this is going to be the pattern of work for this hearing, but it also means you can then again.

Be a bit more proactive of looking at it and saying, well, right, there's a March hearing. I know that we've got a February half term because we've got children in school. We've also got the Christmas holidays. So actually, realistically, when am I gonna do these different bits of work? Do I need to front load something a bit more and move it from a February deadline to say I'm going to get it to the end of January so that I'm not hitting up again?

Other dates, whether it's work dates, whether it's travel, whether it's school holidays. It doesn't really matter what it is, but it's just about trying to manage your time and look forward, rather than being reactive and, you know, having to work late into the night or having to rush things. Because it hasn't all been properly managed on a timescale that suits.

Jen Curtis: And I think linked to that is don't underestimate the timescales that might be needed for any third party information. So as much as many financial organizations have online portals that you can go onto to access, for example, bank statements or pension values or things. There are still a pocket of organisations out there who will insist on sending you something in the post.

And I'm thinking particularly hear of things like pension values for public sector pensions. So for example, a doctor in the NHS who's being asked to produce information about their pension. You'll have potentially even seen from the news, that there are pension administrators who are taking a very long time to send that information out.

And so don't assume that when you do have the time to allocate your own mind to it, that you will then be able to immediately access that information within 24 hours. And there may be little bits of information out there that. A, you've got to allow the post for, and B, that there may be wider delays with.

Tim Whitney: And I think the fact that we're now talking about the inner workings of pension administrators shows us that it's coming towards the end of the podcast and we should think about wrapping things up. So I am going to ask you, Jen, of all the things we've talked about, what would be your top tip for clients when they're working with their lawyers?

Jen Curtis: I think it comes down to getting to know your lawyer and getting to know what works for you as the client so that you have this overarching clear understanding between the two of you of. Yep. We're going to communicate 90% of the time via email.

Have a meeting if we need it, or whatever the arrangement might be, but just so that you've got an overarching framework between the two of you where you each understand each other's expectations and can really work together on, on whatever task that you need to deal with as part of your separation. Have you got a top tip? 

Tim Whitney: I was going to say the same thing actually, if I'm honest. I was going to say personalized communication, so as you say, talking about how you want to communicate at the outset.

Since you've taken that one, my second top tip would be, as in when a case gets more complicated to have a case plan that can be shared between you and your lawyers so that everyone understands deadlines, who's doing what, what documents need to be provided.

And you can tick things off and you can understand the context of what you're doing and what's coming down the track. And I think having it as a separate document means that you can look at it when you need to without having to ask, or what date was this?
Or when do we need this by you then have a, very clear idea of your case.

Jen Curtis: Hopefully this episode brings to a positive close the miniseries that we've done in terms of working with the different professionals that might support you when you're going through a divorce or separation.